Reed Mathis Unveils the Rhythm and Spirit of True Musical Creativity
Welcome to Tales from the Green Room. Backstage conversations from popular music venues around the country curated by Mount Tam Media. Listen in as host Dennis Trouszullo and Mount Tam Media founder Tammy Larson dig up conversations with artists before and after shows in the exclusive confines of the Green Room.
tami:host:Improvisation. Improvisation.
Dennis:Improvisation. No. No. Improvisation. Very good.
Dennis:Well, good thing that we're not gonna talk about that.
tami:Are we are we? Yeah.
Dennis:We're recording.
tami:Oh, shit.
Dennis:It's okay. You start at the beginning. Oh, god. This is how we loosen up on air, so to speak.
tami:Oh, oh, so we're gonna go ahead and
Dennis:Let's do
Dennis:it from here. Ready?
tami:Okay. Well, hello, Dennis.
Dennis:Well, hello, Tammy. I almost said Dolly.
tami:Don't be your own material.
Dennis:Anyway, hello. Hi. So what are we doing here today?
tami:Well, I'm extremely envious that, I was back east visiting my daughter while you and stuff went and conducted this interview with Reid Mathis because in editing it and being able to really get into all of it and while I'm reading it as well, while I'm editing it, it was so good. His metaphors and just the his insight, I just loved it. I just really love it.
Dennis:It's very
tami:different than a lot of our numbers because he's dimensional and a little bit like Kimmok who, obviously, he has played with and you can elaborate on that a little bit. But it it was very much that same vibe. I felt like I was sitting in, a philosophy class and learning all of these things that I hadn't really thought of. He just has a way of describing things from a completely different angles, and sometimes we'll bring it all back together, and it's just fun. That's what I would say about this.
tami:It's fun.
Dennis:It is fun. It's educational. I mean, for so we're gonna say this is your favorite interview that you did not conduct.
tami:Yeah. Because I was I was there as I was at Kim. And I don't know. They're all getting to be so good as
Dennis:it's so hard to say what's my favorite. I think, you know, when I'm there talking to him and interviewing, it's a discussion more than an interview, really.
tami:Yeah.
Dennis:And I'm listening, and then it's over. Right? But then you sit with it and
reed:you're in
Dennis:the production and you're listening and editing, and all of a sudden, you're getting down and dirty with with all of it. And but you're you're totally correct
tami:because I'm editing out all your ums and ahs.
Dennis:That's really fun. Okay. Anyway, so what we did here, first of all, let's just lead this up. Reid is releasing his own podcast series, and it is entitled The Gifts of Improvising. And it's going to release on January 29 on Osiris Radio, the Osiris Podcast Network.
Dennis:hi there im finMhmm.
Dennis:Osiris Media, I think, is the official name. And so here we are today, the tales from the Green Room podcast promoting Reid's podcast, and I am just so happy to do it because what what I told him, during the even during the interview, I said, this is gonna be like, a 45 intro It is too. To your podcast Yeah. Which you don't get to do. They'd be like us sitting here for forty five for forty five minutes.
Dennis:We're already too long. Don't make me laugh anymore. We're already too long on this one. But, you know, but it's a separate episode, and he he just he's been living with this for years, really, ever since he's
tami:10 or 15, I think.
Dennis:At least. Yeah. He said, anybody that'll listen, including spouses, significant others, whoever was in the room, who's gonna listen to me on this? And it I I found it fast. I also thought Reid and I told him this.
Dennis:I'm not sure if I did it during the interview or afterwards, but I said, I just found him to be one of the most intelligent
tami:Oh, he's brilliant. Yeah. You can tell.
Dennis:Yeah. Musicians that we've interviewed. Yeah. And I what I told him was I love your metaphors.
tami:Well, yeah. That's right. Yeah. They're they're great.
Dennis:Yeah. You like my metaphors? I said I do. And so he comes from this angle that was amazing. So and what he did in this 12 part series, he interviews other musicians.
Dennis:Mhmm. So it's musician to musician talking about improvising. And I don't, you know, I don't wanna say the lost art because it it's really I guess the the key to it is it's not imitating people, but it's using the your your heroes maybe as your baseline, as your form, but then making it your own. I mean, that's Yeah.
tami:I guess I'll only talk about one thing that kinda really stood out, which was, that the musicians are getting a little bit comfortable in terms of, some of these cover bands and and doing, you know, what Jerry and with the Grateful Dead have been you know, what they did and not making it their own as much. And he brings up the fact that, you know, Phil just passed, and having Phil on the ticket, that's that's helpful. But everybody really needs to start considering and rethinking about how they're playing this music. And, he doesn't do it in a degrading sort of he just is insightful about this and has been thinking about this, ruminating. Right?
tami:So, that's really where he goes with this podcast, and it's great. It is a perfect intro.
Dennis:Yeah. And so and he just loved doing it. It was really you know, I've seen we've seen Reed around. It's alright. We've seen Reed around, you know, the the scene here in the Bay Area.
Dennis:And this is, one thing I like about him. We know him a little bit, but now we know him better. Mhmm. Enough to talk and chat with him, etcetera. But, you know, here's a guy who one day is playing with Bill Kreutzman or Billy Strings or Phil Lesh in the past or Steve Kimmock.
Dennis:Mhmm.
Dennis:And then the next day, he's hanging out, you know, at the Junction Beer Garden
reed:Yeah.
Dennis:And watching the music with everybody, and he's just a he's a cool cat.
tami:He really is cool. So the first time I ever really I mean, I think I've gone to see Tea Leaf Green, I'm pretty sure, together way back. But when I really noticed him was when I, saw Billy Strings for the first time before he really went crazy. And, and so I went home after seeing Billy Strings play, and I watched every single Billy Strings video. And one of them was Kurtzman.
tami:It was in in Friends, I believe.
Dennis:Billy and the kids.
tami:Billy and the kids. Mhmm. And and he stood out to me. I mean, of course, Billy's playing, but because he just moves, his hair was blowing in the in the wind. It was an outdoor concert, and just he moves so so cool with his guitar.
tami:And I kept going back to him when I was watching that. Oh, that's cool.
Dennis:That reminds me of something. So, we have a a friend named Lisa Gorman whose husband is Ari Gorman, a bass player himself. Yeah. And our Lisa used to work for me years ago. Now she is at, Eventbrite.
Dennis:Mhmm.
Dennis:Is that correct? No. Plug.
tami:Those are my good friends.
Dennis:Yeah. That's right. Working for the general counsel's office. So hello, Lisa and Ari. But at the I'm just laughing at this because we used to go, to shows and Lisa would be there, and she would point to Reid.
Dennis:She goes, see see how Reid does it? How he treats his hips when he plays? That's what Ari needs to do. Sorry, Reid.
tami:I totally remember that.
reed:I did
Dennis:I was gonna bring that up to you.
tami:Oh my god. Okay. We digress.
Dennis:Well, no. We digress. But he does. He well, I mean, he's he's soulful, but he comes from Yeah. But he comes from a jazz background.
tami:There you go.
Dennis:And so do many of the people he interviewed. And and here's something interesting. This whole idea of doing this podcast with Reed came up at Sweetwater hanging out in the alleyway. You know? Mhmm.
tami:Yeah. And the way they keep they can find us there anytime.
Dennis:Anywhere things happen, you know, as you're going on stage. And I thought it was just one of these nights he was just coming to hang out. He goes, no. I'm sitting in. He was sitting in with Pink Talking Fish.
tami:Oh, yeah. Another cool one.
Dennis:We had seen, a year prior, Libo
reed:sat
Dennis:in with Pink Talking Fish. So now it was Reid's turn and talk about, improvising. You know, those guys.
reed:Yeah.
Dennis:He was amazing. And, of course, when he did so, he was off the hook.
tami:Yeah.
Dennis:And and the other Reed was a known as a bass player.
tami:Yes.
Dennis:And here's something I learned in the podcast. I'm I don't care if I'm giving it away here. He picked up playing guitar really for the first time. I don't know if it's the first time, but he really practiced and picked up playing the guitar during COVID.
tami:Not the bass. Do you mean
Dennis:the The guitar. The just the not the bass guitar, but he just
tami:No. Just yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Dennis:He started playing the guitar, not the bass Right. During COVID. And he wouldn't I mean, the way the guy plays
reed:the guitar.
tami:Well, they're both guitars.
Dennis:I well, that's true. And he will tell you, well, the bass guitar versus Whatever. Not a bass guitar. But, the thing is he'll tell and then people come to him now and go, oh, Reed, I thought you played bass. And he finally says, I just play music.
Dennis:You know? But it is and it I think he was being modest because he
tami:Yeah. He really
Dennis:picks us up. So he he's good.
tami:Very talented.
Dennis:Alright. So, there are 10 episodes and many guests. I think he has some double up guests on his, series that comes out. I'm gonna name some of them Joe Russo.
reed:Mhmm.
Dennis:I think is the one he starts with, and then he goes deep with Jay Lane. Mhmm. But don't we all in our podcast?
tami:Yeah. If you ever need something some interesting topics.
Dennis:Yeah. So he he really, got down and dirty with Jay. Tom Hamilton was a guest. Holly Bowling Mhmm. Was on.
Dennis:And then he had, Robert Walker and Mike Clark of the Headhunters, which is the old Herbie Hancock.
reed:I suppose.
Dennis:Originates I mean, yeah. So talk about jazz. Scarrick was on that episode too. There's someone we've interviewed also in the past. And and speaking of that, Elliot Peck was one of his guests as was, Natalie Cressman and Graham Loesch and Steve Kimmock, of course.
Dennis:Right? And let's not forget Adam McDougall, and there's some others.
Dennis:So Yeah.
tami:So so, I mean, yeah, you'll he'll they'll hear all about this, but it is a 12 part series. Yes. And he's very focused on, you know, musicians that have jazz backgrounds as well. Absolutely. Right?
tami:So, that's sort of a a cool little niche.
Dennis:Yeah. And I think he also relates it, not only to music but to life. Mhmm. And I really like that about it. So Reed Mathis, thanks for sitting down.
Dennis:Here is your intro for your podcast, which again is the gifts of improvising. Yes. Alright. And not
tami:anything else. Improvisation.
Dennis:Not improvisation. No.
tami:No. Improv improvisation.
Dennis:Improvisation. We had a little back Improvisation. We had a little back and forth in that he and I because I I had it wrong. And, you know, it's not even advertised yet, so I'm trying to figure out the name of the thing, but he corrected me.
tami:And Yeah. He did.
Dennis:And he said, listen. I it's nitpicky, but Yeah. This is it. The gifts of improvising.
tami:I edited that just a little bit.
Dennis:No. Whatever. Yeah. Anyway, Reed, thank you. And, everyone listen to this intro to his podcast.
Dennis:REED INTRO: What's up, Brooklyn?
REED:So we're real honored
reed:to make music with y'all today. But before we get going, I just wanna tell y'all a little bit about what what we mean by being here.
REED:Sometimes an outsider makes some great art, and everybody says it's awesome. And then it becomes inside, and only insiders the crowd when it started as outsiders. So
reed:our job,
REED:your job. Is to let that music be the voice of the outsiders, where it came from, the wrong kind of person, the wrong kind of music, and revel
reed:in being unique. That's
REED:what we're about.
reed:That's what Ludlow Vamedevan was about, and that's our point.
REED:Don't do it right. Do it true. Do it real.
Dennis:Here we go. Alright. Reid Mathis, welcome to Tales from the Green Room.
REED:I'm so excited. I've been waiting years.
Dennis:At least two. Right? That's Yeah.
Dennis:Well, we did have you on a little cameo, and it I wanted to say it was the you know, it was Brian Melvin. Did you come and play with
REED:Brian Melvin. I
Dennis:Did you? That was you there.
REED:Yeah. I did at his birthday
Dennis:show
REED:Yes. At Sweetwater.
Dennis:So you popped in. You're nice enough to pop in. You know what we asked you that that you did a
Dennis:nice little dissertation on Terrapin
REED:and what that Oh, did I?
Dennis:And what meant meant to you,
Dennis:what Phil meant
Dennis:to you, and that's that is in fact
Dennis:the, subject of entire podcast. We have, including you, over 40 people we've interviewed with little sound bites on the Terrapin impact. It's gonna be amazing. Yeah. So we're gonna put you in on that one.
Dennis:But this is this one's coming out first. Uh-huh. And it's our one focusing on you, Reed Mathis. You are gonna have your own podcast.
REED:It's true. Gifts of improvising.
Dennis:Okay. So there we go.
REED:Which are it sounds nitpicky, but it's actually a very different subject.
reed:You know
REED:what I mean? I That kinda gets to the crux of it, actually.
Dennis:For. No.
REED:Because, you know, the the real subject of the of the podcast isn't really improvisation. The real that's the Trojan horse.
Dennis:Okay.
REED:The real subject of the podcast is reenactment. Why do so many people that that purport themselves to be improvisers just quote their heroes?
Dennis:Exactly. You know what I mean?
REED:Like, how many brilliant musicians that devote their life to their instrument and their craft never stop quoting their parents, basically, as far as the musicians they know Emulate. Emulate. Like, that's some that's a necessary part of learning the language to emulate your heroes. And you, you know, it's a necessary part of learning an instrument and learning a tradition. But it's it's, the players we all remember after their death, you know, are people that spoke personally through their instrument.
REED:Not it's it's not like you can't tell who their influences are because they're not quoting them. They're talking about themselves. They're playing themselves, you know? And I feel like whenever you get to, like, the core of sort of a a the cult that surrounds a a genre, you know, you start getting into the same problems that churches have, where it's fundamentalists and progressives, kind of. And there are fundamentalists are usually the people who take the word of God literally.
REED:They're like, this is literally true. And they they treat a genre that way as well. You know what I mean? Like, oh, this genre is literally this. If you are playing this song, it's literally this tempo.
REED:You literally use this kind of guitar. You know what I mean? Like all those things as if they're true about the song when really that's just somebody's subjective version from some time, you know? So anyway, the the real subject of the podcast is I'm getting all these improvisers who are in the Grateful Dead world, sort of jam band world, but they're not from that world. They're coming from more of a jazz upbringing.
REED:And all these people, Joe Russo, Marco Benevento, you know, Jay Lane,
Dennis:Jay Lane for sure.
REED:Myself, like, there there's this whole wave of players that kinda came up in the nineties and early two thousands that are now playing Grateful Dead music, which is very improvised. But they didn't start there. They all they have you know what I mean? So I'm basically talking to those people, and I'm talking about, a, what does it feel like to innovate in a situation with fundamentalists? Wow.
Dennis:What a great analogy.
REED:Like, what if everybody's copying the Grateful Dead verbatim except you on that stage?
reed:Do you
REED:know what I mean? Oh. Like, what do you do? And, you know, and then there's, like, basically what I don't know. I just try to get people going on that subject.
Dennis:Well, I bet you
Dennis:do. So let let me let me ask I'm gonna back up
Dennis:a bit. So the gifts of improvising. Improvising,
Dennis:the verb, and
Dennis:that makes a big difference. And you say it sounds
REED:Because improvising is you. Yeah. Improvisation is that. It.
reed:Yeah.
REED:But improvising is you. And the thing the funny you
Dennis:should say about the the nitpicking on the words Yeah. Because I when I was thinking when you first told me in the Sweetwater Alley, you were telling me about this, and I heard the art of improvising
Dennis:Oh, yeah. Improvisation. But I thought
Dennis:and then I saw the gift.
Dennis:There's a difference there too. Right? The art of improvising.
REED:Well, it's not the gift of the improviser. Yeah. It's the gift of improvise. It's what improvising does for you.
Dennis:For the audience or for
REED:the Yeah. For for you. Yes. For you. Yeah.
REED:Whoever you are. Like, in improvisation being part of your life Right. Is bears fruit. You know? You get you get you get life force from it.
REED:You it it can teach you how well, I mean, at the at the most direct level, it teaches you what to do when when things don't go to plan. Yeah. It teaches you how to handle not getting your way. It helps you so that when you get blindsided by something, you're not knocked down. You pivot.
REED:You know? Yeah. You yes and, you know, as Tina Fey famously said. You know? Yeah.
REED:I mean, it's that's the gift of that's one of the gifts of it.
Dennis:One of it. And and the other thing
Dennis:I was thinking on the nitpicky part, I was gonna
Dennis:need to pick the title too. Yeah. After I screwed
Dennis:it up or before I screwed
Dennis:it up. But the gifts,
REED:plural. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Dennis:This is because they it's they're the gifts that keep on giving.
Dennis:I suppose
REED:The yeah. I mean, the subject of the podcast is basically why this is important Yeah. And why we don't wanna lose it, why it's not the same thing as copying an improviser.
Dennis:Got it.
REED:Copying an improviser and improvising are not the same thing. So say, the the elephant in the room, Jerry Garcia, great improviser. Is copying him improvising? No. It's copying him is a is a useful way to study his instrument, his psyche, to study the way a master musician approaches things.
REED:And study the way you handle trauma. Like there's so many things you can learn from a virtuoso. But he wasn't copying his heroes verbatim. He was playing it. He sounds like him.
REED:You never hear him playing. You're like I wonder who that is. Like you know that's him. You know? And so it's like yeah.
REED:The gifts of improvising are different than the gifts of improvisers.
Dennis:Okay.
Dennis:And and and you're talking about playing your truth. Yeah. Was that fair?
REED:Yeah. Exactly. The one of the interviews in the I think it's, like, the fifth episode. Robert Walter is I try to get him to really articulate. You know?
REED:He's like he's like, when I see a performance, that's what I wanna see is, like, I wanna know who this person is. I don't wanna know what their what they wanna be. I don't wanna know what their record collection looks like. I don't wanna know what their concept is. I wanna know who they are.
REED:I wanna know who they are when they're not trying to be something.
Dennis:Right.
REED:Like, who are you really, you know?
Dennis:Okay. Good. So we're you're let's go back to the
REED:Whereas the genre gives is like a costume. A a lot of the the way a lot of people treat it. They don't treat it like a like a, you know, like a place to embark from. They treat it like a set of rules. Right.
REED:You know? And Manners. Yeah. Like, this this is correct bluegrass. This is incorrect bluegrass.
REED:This is here is the line. If you do it with, you know, the the Bob Dylan movie is is in the Zeitgeist right now, and that's what he showed better than anybody. No kidding. You know? He's like they're like, well, this is your acoustic foe.
REED:Yeah. And he was like, eat my dust. Yeah. Like, what are you talking about? You know?
REED:Yeah. And that's so the other subject of the podcast is Dylan because he, even more than the Grateful Dead, he didn't really leave something you can reenact. Do you know what I mean? Like like, there isn't a main version of him. If there would be, I guess you would say it would be the first version, but he so openly rejected it while still a young man.
REED:So, you know and he never sang in such a way that you wanna copy it, as a you know what I mean? It's like people can spend their lives trying to sing like Aretha Franklin, and that's a noble pursuit. Like, Ravi Shank trying to play like Ravi Shankar, one of these total maestros. But Dylan didn't do that. Dylan didn't give you a voice to aim for.
REED:He he gave you permission to not have a perfect voice.
reed:Same thing the dead did.
Dennis:And he I wanna say, I mean, he not only did he not play those songs later on, he he said he forgot them. Right.
Dennis:I I right?
REED:And if he plays if he plays one of those songs now Yeah. It's got a new chord progression, and it's got two new verses. And maybe there's a changed word in the chorus. And it's like, yes. Oh my god.
REED:I saw him play at the frost in 2019, and he opened with highway 61, eight new verses. Beautiful. It was just like, goodbye.
Dennis:I remember I saw a press conference recently of him.
Dennis:And have you seen this on YouTube? A press conference?
REED:The sixties stuff. Before. Yeah. Where he's just And
Dennis:he's just like, I am not,
REED:you know, I'm not Pushing back so hard.
Dennis:Yeah. Back, and he's cool. He's smoking a cigarette.
REED:Yeah. Yeah. It's really it's really gorgeous until he starts to look really kinda really beat down towards toward, you know, towards 66.
Dennis:Yeah. But but that moment, the one I'm talking about,
Dennis:I think, is 64, and he's just It's a Wonderful.
Dennis:He's in his place. After Newport,
Dennis:the whole thing, you know. Oh, you're so you're playing a folk rock Right.
Dennis:They said to him or
Dennis:and he went, no. I'm not. Right.
Dennis:Yeah. So
REED:You might be hearing folk rock, but that's your ears.
Dennis:That's That's not
REED:you know?
Dennis:Alright. Let me let me go back to the podcast because I'm gonna say a little bit more about it because this is essentially Danny Eisenberg in the house. Hello, Danny. Yeah. Say hi.
Dennis:Doing it.
Dennis:Yeah. We're doing it. You're you're allowed to come and sit and talk and whatever you want.
Dennis:What's your name on that? Yeah. Danny Isenberg, come on in. So with the podcast, you get to do
Dennis:a little, you know, ten five minute intro or maybe not even that long.
Dennis:This is gonna be, like, a forty five minute intro
Dennis:to it. What now? Thirty minutes.
Dennis:Whatever it is.
Dennis:But this is great. Right? So you could really explain it. But tell us this, just the nuts and bolts. 10 episodes, is it?
Dennis:12. 12 episodes.
REED:Mhmm.
Dennis:Alright. 12 episodes, and it's gonna come out.
REED:The first one is January 29, and they're gonna come out every Wednesday
Dennis:Okay.
REED:For twelve weeks.
Dennis:Beautiful.
Dennis:On there. On on on Osiris?
REED:On Osiris. Alright. And, yeah, each of some of them have one interviewee. A lot of them have two. Some of them have a bunch.
REED:And then some of the later ones get a little elaborate on the editing.
Dennis:You go deep.
REED:I go a little deep on the, like, flight in different sources and having different people read things and just getting where there's, like, a main interviewee, but then I get other people talking about that that person and I intersperse that, you know, and, like and the whole thing scored with music that I made with Jay Lane and Adam McDougall and Gio Xavier and Elliot Peck and Natalie Cressman. Wow. So those tracks are also gonna be coming out the same when every Wednesday, the podcast episode, and then the soundtrack to that specific episode will also come out as a single.
Dennis:And I think this is it's very cool.
reed:And it
REED:and that and those tracks really embody everything we're talking about, basically. It's alright.
Dennis:Let let me give the listeners a little just a second of background because I think your background led to this. Right? I mean, your This
reed:is musical.
Dennis:Yeah. I'm sure all the influences.
REED:Yeah. I'm just gonna list them out. My love and my hate.
Dennis:You're loving your hate.
Dennis:And you start with the Jacob Fred and Jacob Fred jazz odyssey, Tea Leaf Green
Dennis:Right. Billy and the kids. Right.
REED:I mean,
Dennis:these are all influencing. Right?
Dennis:And then playing with what? Mickey Hart.
Dennis:We talked about Steve Kimlock
reed:Of
Dennis:course. In here when we first started. The Golden Gate Wingman.
reed:Mhmm.
Dennis:Those guys, John Kaye, Trento. Menti, Jay Lane again. How about your electric Beethoven project?
REED:That was so fun.
Dennis:I mean, so that's
Dennis:all I I believe this is all, you know, all
Dennis:of that plus you became a
Dennis:fixture in the Bay Area jam band scene and beyond.
Dennis:Uh-huh. So I'm just guessing that this is altogether as packaged, and you've been thinking about this. Living it, I've been bitching
REED:about this with friends and significant others for so many hours, thousands of hours where just like my friends are like
Dennis:You were fucking pissed. They're just
REED:like, here he goes again. You know? Like and, like, I kinda process things out loud, so I need to talk a lot about when I'm when something's bothering me. And, like, so, yeah, it's kinda like the and a lot of most of the musicians I've been interviewing, I've known for over twenty years. You know?
Dennis:And it's been ruminating in your head.
REED:So yeah.
Dennis:It's like well and
reed:the thing is in the last
REED:ten to fifteen years, really, since I moved to San Francisco, I've seen I've done a lot of good group improvising here, but I've also seen a lot of very, just sort of comfort comfort food, maybe, as far as an approach to a traditional form. And like, I've, I've really worried that there's nothing wrong with that, but I've worried that maybe as a community, we it's important to me that we remember that there that's not the same thing. Like, you know, I love Star Wars, you know? And if some actors got together and read the script of Star Wars, I would be like, this is awesome. And I'd be having fun.
REED:You know what I'm saying? Like, I get wanting to trace something beautiful over and over and over. I love it. I listen to Charlie Parker. He's been dead since 1955.
REED:Those recordings aren't getting any newer. And I still listen to them over and over and over. That's great. But that's not the same thing as in as
Dennis:in not disrupting. Yeah.
tami:Creativity.
REED:Right. Although, you know, listening is a creative act, and you can listen to something over and over and have a different experience every time. And so, you know, you can listen creatively without and listen to only one song for the rest of your life.
Dennis:Flaying. I mean, I think I've heard you
Dennis:say this before. Weren't the dad and some
Dennis:of these other weren't they sort of even rock and roll itself, disruptors. Disrupters of the art. There's like
REED:a life cycle that these genres kinda go through. Mhmm. Where at first, it's, like, rowdy and chaotic and underground, and people don't make money, and it's, like, really homegrown, and there's no rules. And then there's the next wave where they take those things, refine them, put on nice clothes, and become celebrities. And then there's the third wave where it becomes standardized, and there's a right and wrong way to do it.
REED:And, you know, you see classical music go through that. You see jazz go through it. You see rock and roll go through it. Then you see hip hop go through it. Every all these ideas, it's like it's a natural cycle.
REED:But the thing is, if you're in an orchestra, unless you're really the conductor or the soloist, you can't decide to play Beethoven in a new way. As improvisers, we have the ability to just decide to be new without changing the song. You can you it's not like, you know, you could play the same exact song, but deciding to not reference your memory, basically.
Dennis:And make it your own.
REED:Yeah. Make it something new. Be present with it. It's like, you know, I mean, the Krishnamurti is like a a a Hindu teacher or, who talks about, like, being married. He talks about, like, having a wife, let for the length of your life.
REED:You know? And, like, how many times have you seen her face? When you you remember falling in love and everything was magical. Now you've been married fifty years, and you've seen her face so many fucking times. Can you even see it?
REED:Because all that memory, the way the brain works, we're we're projecting most of what our eyes most of what we think we're looking at is projected from our memory, from what we expect. If we actually looked at everything, we would run out of energy very quickly. We have to us make a lot of assumptions to see. And he's basically like, the longer you've been with something, the more work you might have to do to look to see it. You know?
REED:And if, if you've been married to somebody or your parents or something, like, can you see this person? And, like, the same thing applies to music. When, like, a song how many times do you play a song? You know, Bill Kreutzman is the most amazing one at this because, man, every time we play a song how many times does he play Bertha? We'll count it off, and it'll he'll come in very clearly not knowing what he's going to do.
REED:He's not like, this is the beat for Bertha, and then I'll do variations on it. He's like, how does Bertha go? Literally. You know what I mean?
Dennis:Start with the form.
Dennis:Is it He starts with He starts with
REED:present and how do I literally feel right now?
Dennis:Today. This moment.
REED:Not even today. Not even five minutes ago.
Dennis:That's sick.
REED:Like, how what am I actually literally feeling? Like, when you sit there in silence and then you go, you'll have a feeling. You know what I mean? Like and that's where you improvise from. The res the the in your body, you have a response to a sound.
REED:And then so Bill's like if anybody had a right to be like, here's how Bertha goes, it'd be him. Right. And he he's like Dylan. Like, he just does not have that gear. Yeah.
REED:It's Dylan's not deciding not to do it like before. He is it that's not who he is. That's not what he does. Like and I'm so the reason I'm doing a podcast is because I'm really imagining things, but I feel like we're in danger, especially without Phil Lesh around to sell tickets for us. I think we're in danger of playing it safe and losing something that was a very important part of the sixties in general, which is improvise real improvisation.
Dennis:Not Improvising. Yeah.
REED:Like, not quoting improvisers, but being one yourself.
Dennis:This is interesting. So how these these are musician to musician interviews. Right? So how do you get this message, or how does it relate to the audience? You know, somebody maybe like myself, you know, we're music, lovers.
Dennis:We love improvisation, but we're not musicians. Right? And so how do you speak to that audience through this podcast, I guess, is my general question because well,
Dennis:let let go with that.
Dennis:I have a follow-up already.
Dennis:I mean,
REED:the same way I play, which is close my eyes and hope for the best.
Dennis:Okay.
REED:You know, like, like, most people that get into the arts are people that had a that had damage around learning to communicate, and they need to take extraordinary measures to communicate. And I'm not great at figuring out what somebody wants and delivering it. I just like I I shut down if that is on the table.
Dennis:Mhmm.
REED:So and as a conversationalist, as a partner, as a teammate, my only real point of strength is if I is if I let go.
Dennis:Yeah. Let go.
Dennis:Yeah.
REED:And basically, like like, like, basically, you know, like, it's too late. It's too late for me to be what this person wants. I'm already this. Basically, like, the time for me to learn how to be what people want has passed. That ship is 48 years old.
REED:Yeah. I'm this thing.
Dennis:That's what makes you that. Right? Well, this is see is just listening to the voice and it that's
REED:And it's like but it's it's upsetting because you you know, we grow up really wanting to be liked. And the way and we're programmed by millions of years of evolution to not be thrown out of the pack, you know? So you would die. Before ten thousand years ago, getting kicked out of the pack meant death. So we're literally afraid for our lives to be socially ostracized by nature's programming.
Dennis:Playing playing for our lives.
REED:And so, like, if you happen to be somebody who does things differently than people expect, it's tough. You know? Risky.
Dennis:It's tough.
REED:It's risky. Yeah. And it's like I feel like my only shot is if my inner nature somehow resembles yours. And the only way I'm gonna find out is if I let my inner nature let you see it.
Dennis:You know? You mentioned Phil and the ticket sales kind of thing. Yeah. Absolutely. But it's an interesting thing because
Dennis:I think I heard you
Dennis:I don't
Dennis:know if you told me. I heard you say this once,
Dennis:the relationship with the audience going back to that. Yeah. Aren't you trying to find out why they are paying you money to improvise? Nope. I mean no.
Dennis:Okay. That's not I have that wrong. So I mean, because you're sitting there
Dennis:with this audience. There's a lot of audience connection here, or is there not? I mean Yeah. Oh, absolutely.
reed:All of it. That's all it is.
Dennis:To make sense. That's all it is. Okay. Yeah. So to do this, But
REED:you can't do that on purpose.
Dennis:Not on purpose.
REED:You know? Right. It's about being present, you know, and
Dennis:Understand and with this.
REED:Vulnerable. Like, people can feel when you are trusting them. So that's the ask that I've put all my eggs in as a performer is, like, if I trust these people with my real self, they'll be able to feel that. And it will create an atmosphere of acceptance and celebration and ease. And that is better than gratifying expectations.
Dennis:Oh, got it.
REED:You know? Like
Dennis:Toss a pernition.
REED:Permit. That's the thing. It's like, you know exactly. And, like, yeah, when somebody is vulnerable, it it can start a chain reaction of people feeling vulnerable. You know?
REED:And, like, that's what, like, church is supposed to be. But so often, it's a recitation. And I wanna make sure that this does not become a recitation. Right. No.
REED:You know what I mean? This is supposed to be an ancient fucking ritual that is messy and confusing and passionate and scary at times. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
Dennis:And it's like affecting the music Right. That you're that you're playing. You're playing
Dennis:music, but you have to affect it somehow with your own self.
REED:There yes. Like, your real your aliveness. Yeah. Which might not sound good, or it might be afraid it doesn't sound good. Since the age of four, I have been recording myself playing instruments and singing.
REED:And every time I've done it to this day, I'm like, it sounds terrible. I'm embarrassing myself. Who do I think I am? All of that shit. And then I rewind, play it back, and I'm like, I fucking love it.
REED:Yeah. Speak real. And I'm just like, so there's something about the act of doing it that hurts, kind of. And it's like, I can't really do anything about that. I used to drink, and that would seem to help, but be in
Dennis:a world of other problems. Temporarily
REED:alleviate that. You just have to get to a point where you're like, I'm okay with it being uncomfortable, like a first date. You know? Like Yeah. Every time.
REED:Yeah. Exactly. Every time. First date every time. That's improvising.
Dennis:And what about, like, when you're so you're in a band, improvisational band, let's say, or just a band, and you must tend to, because of who you are, step out, so
Dennis:to speak. I don't know if that's the right way.
Dennis:Step out or or just say, I'm gonna be Speak up. Speak up.
REED:Yeah. That's how I always think of it.
Dennis:Speak up. Right? Now I'm I'm gonna do something a little bit that's a
Dennis:little bit off from you stick with the form, but you're gonna put yourself into it. You're gonna add your own value. Yeah. And then what happens Are there artists in that band? It depends, I'm sure.
REED:It depends. And there's a lot of there's a you could there's a lot of, like, just straight up emotional relationship stuff that you end up confronting when you're trying to do group improvisation, whether you like it or not, you know? Because it's like nobody likes a bossy person, but nobody really likes a mousy person either. And it's really it's an that's an art form in itself. Like, how can I be a good soloist and a good ensemble member and, like
Dennis:And still stay within what you're
reed:talking about?
REED:Kimak Kimak used to say, I I when I was first playing with him when I was, like, 20 or something, and he was like, what do you want me to do? What what approach do you want? And he was like, I want I want 75% sitting on your hands, 20% interacting and 5% flexing. I was like, Oh, that's very cohesive. I'd give you anything.
REED:I mean, like coherent. I mean, that makes sense to me. So, you know, yeah, I feel like you need to be good at all three things. You need to be good at keeping your mouth shut and being listening. Just because the other person said something that reminds you of something doesn't mean you have to say that.
REED:You know, I the older I get, the more I'm like, if I don't jump in right here, I bet the next thing they say will be amazing. And until a week ago, I would have jumped in right here and said my cool thing. But if I don't, something better will probably happen. And the same thing happens on stage where it's like, I could really make a move right now. And if I don't, what will happen?
REED:You know? And that's half of improvising, too, is just knowing how to not make a move.
Dennis:That's really interesting.
REED:And not disrupt because somebody else might be getting ready to do something vulnerable, and they would be spooked if you made a move. So it's like but you can also go too far the other way and be like, I don't wanna mess you up.
Speaker 6:I don't wanna mess you up. I don't wanna mess you up.
REED:And then you're and then you don't make any moves.
Dennis:Now you're the mousey guy. Exactly.
REED:Yeah. So it's just like this constant and really, the the goal isn't to figure out how to be in the middle all the time. It's like the goal is to balance the elements so that you're bossy the right amount, and you're cooperative the right amount, and then you're passive the right amount. Right. And that seems to me to get the job done.
REED:Picking out,
Dennis:or maybe once in a while you are?
REED:I mean, it's Hopefully. When I listen back Yeah. I that's always my least favorite part. Yeah. I can tell them the minute I decided to you can go.
REED:It's just like, oh, gosh. There you go. I did it. There you go. And my favorite part is almost always something I didn't notice at the time.
Dennis:Really cool. You know? We talked we interviewed Steve Kimaka. He said he listened. I asked him
Dennis:I I was at
Dennis:a show of his where there was in in the audience, and there was one of his fans just going, come on, Steve.
REED:Right. Back. Come on. What are you doing? Right.
Dennis:And he could tell that
Dennis:he was, I don't know, deferring, but
Dennis:he was he was holding back. Right. And Steve said he he kind of gave the answer you just did. Not in those particulars about the percentages of knowing when to do it, etcetera. Yeah.
Dennis:And he doesn't like the the the limelight either. I mean
REED:Well, I was just gonna say, like, saying that to Steve, it get you the opposite of what you want. The harder you push him, the less he will Yeah. He is like a he's like a wild squirrel or something. It's like, hold still and he might approach you, you know, or a deer. You know what I mean?
REED:Like, you can't be like, come on, boy. Like, he's not gonna heal, you know.
Dennis:Well, tell alright. Let me I mean, let's see. Promote this a little more. Tell us who the artists are. Can you?
REED:Oh, yeah. So the first episode, which comes out in two weeks from tonight today. Wow. Yeah. The first episode, I start out talking about the my first time going to New York and meeting Joe Russo at the wetlands.
REED:And then a few years later and then I asked a couple people to tell me their first impressions of Joe, a couple of his heroes. And then and then I go into, like, oh, and then him and Marco Benavento started the duo, and then I segue into talking to Marco. Marco and I talked for a while, then I pass the ball, and it's Aaron Magner.
Dennis:Mhmm.
REED:So that's the first episode. Second episode is me and Jay Lane Yeah. Going long, shooting the shit, really getting down to it. And that's one of my favorite episodes because he's such a cool cat, and I feel like he's such a different guy away from, away from the scene. Yeah.
REED:You know? No doubt. I love one PMJ. You know? Yeah.
REED:I love one AMJ too, but one PMJ is awesome. And then the third episode is Tom Hamilton, which was amazing. And that and that one, we talk a lot about Kreuzmann and his approach and what how lame it is to anyway. The the fourth episode
Dennis:is too much away.
REED:Fourth episode is Holly Bowling.
Dennis:Oh, beautiful.
REED:And I went to her house, and we we had a long talk. And we both we really saw it. I didn't know a lot of shit. Nice. The fifth episode, I talked to Robert Walter, Mike Clark from the Headhunters, and, Skarek all in one episode.
REED:But those are all people I met through Mike Clark, and then I ended up playing with Mike Clark. So, and he's like, you know, at one point, he says, I'm just now at 79 years old starting to achieve what I set out to do when I was nine. That's what it takes. It's fucking beautiful. Feel it?
REED:Sixth episode is Dave Dreyowitz. And then the seventh and I kind of I read a bunch of Phil Loesch quotes, because it was right after
reed:he got out.
Dennis:Appropriately so.
REED:Yeah. And then the sixth episode, Natalie Cressman, Elliot Peck, and then Elliot Peck again, and then, and Graham and, Rashap.
Dennis:Very nice.
REED:Talking about Phil. And then the eighth episode is my bandmates from back in the day, Brian Hoss and Jason Smart, Jacob Red Jazz Odyssey. Brian and I didn't speak for over a decade after I quit the band, and we were done I I thought we were done forever. So we kinda
Dennis:Was this the first time?
REED:Or No. This was it was among the first times.
Dennis:Amongst. Oh.
REED:Very nice. And then the ninth episode is Kimmok, Nathan Moore, and Adam McDougal. And then the last three, I haven't made yet.
Dennis:Oh, okay. Oh, okay. I thought they were all done and in the
REED:well, nine of them are.
Dennis:Yeah. That's pretty
REED:damn good. People. I interviewed, I interviewed a couple of people a couple days ago. Like
Dennis:Oh, that's fabulous. Can you tell us?
Dennis:Come on. I'm here for an expose.
REED:I mean, jeez.
Dennis:I just gave you
REED:all the way through the March.
Dennis:You did. You did. That's really good stuff. I, any any favorite children? Children by that?
Dennis:No. I mean, any of these your your favorite interview? Oh. You can't pick your favorite child, of course, but among the favorites, you said it. Jay Lane was probably one of them.
REED:I mean, the Jay Lane interview was really, really good. I mean, we we hadn't caught up in a while either. So he kinda had some stuff to get off his chest. I felt like Yep. Just as we we've been tight for a long time.
REED:So, you know, we were kinda
Dennis:I mean I
REED:don't know. He he he he had some stuff he kinda felt like he needed to talk about, I think. So it was really cool.
Dennis:And there it is. Bear with
reed:us to
Dennis:that one, everybody.
Dennis:Yeah. Well, it's hard to pick one.
Dennis:I mean, I but I
Dennis:I I've done it myself with our podcast. Jay is among our
Dennis:favorites without question Yeah. Just because of who he is.
REED:He's brilliant, but he's also just so entertaining.
Dennis:He's so fun.
Dennis:Kim Ock is another favorite. Yeah. Kim Ock was amazing. And for us, you know what? We did
REED:a lot of editing on the Kim Mok interview. Yeah. Just of the silences.
Dennis:Yeah. Yeah. He thinks. He
REED:thinks. He thinks.
Dennis:I was gonna say we had Luther Dickinson.
REED:Oh, I love Luther.
Dennis:He he was fabulous. So I'm just trying to think of my own favorite children that I'm not not supposed to do.
REED:Wow. Yeah. I mean, all of the podcast episodes fall short of what I had hoped, but everything I've ever made has fallen short of what I've hoped with one exception. So, that's okay. That's I'm I'm right on time.
tami:I was
Dennis:gonna say that's exactly how you're you treated your music. Yeah. And the exception is?
reed:Oh, I made a
REED:record in 02/2008 called Winterwood that, didn't come out. We didn't put it out until the pandemic because, I mean, it was the last Jacob Bright album, and then I quit. And the guys were so mad at me that they didn't really sit, even though we had spent a year on it. And it was our Abbey Road. It was our masterpiece, you know?
REED:And they just they knew that the one way to really get back at me was to not put out this record we'd spent a year on. So it was it wasn't until Brian and I patched things up during the lockdown that we released it. And I to this day, I'm just like, that's the kind of record it takes fifteen years of relationship work to make. Wow. You know?
Dennis:There's a lot
Dennis:of layers to that, and it's it's all good.
REED:It's a really beautiful record. Yeah.
Dennis:It's a really beautiful record. Alright. Let let's just shift gears because, we do have a show you do have a show to play.
REED:It's true. I haven't had a soundtrack yet.
Dennis:Oh, jeez. Okay. So let's just this goes right into the question we were kinda musing about before we got going here. Tales from the green room. Here we are.
Dennis:Yeah. What we we like
Dennis:to, capture sort of a what we call us think is a sensitive vibe Uh-huh. In the green room before you play. We could have
Dennis:done this interview anywhere. Right?
REED:Absolutely. Yeah.
Dennis:But we're doing it here before you're playing a show. Mhmm.
Dennis:Is that is that different to you? Does that have any impact, effect, besides being media?
REED:I mean, I'm probably in a better mood than usual because I get to play. Okay. You know, if we'd, like, schedule this for Zoom at noon, like most of my podcasts at the peak, I'd probably be, like, a little less
Dennis:Yeah.
REED:Chatty. I don't know. Like, I feel like I've kinda already got my game face on a little bit. So You're in the zone.
Dennis:Yeah. You're getting in the zone. Absolutely. Yeah. That's good.
Dennis:So we're I've
REED:already had my, like, alone time, and I'm I'm ready to open up and engage and I which is what you have to do to do this. You know? Yeah. So yeah. Feels good.
Dennis:Yeah. Good. Alright. I'm just making sure And
REED:tonight's gonna be really fun.
Dennis:It's gonna be really
REED:fun. I've never hosted a Grateful Dead night of music ever in my
Dennis:life. What?
REED:I have done how many hundreds of them? Yeah. But I've I've never I've never been the person that put it on.
Dennis:That has his friends with him. Let's talk.
REED:So they hit me up asking, and I was like, do you wanna do this? And I was just like, man. I mean, I've been doing Wednesdays at Oscar House for twelve years, and I've never been the catalyst. It's not a big deal to anybody but me. But to me, it's a huge deal.
Dennis:It should be.
REED:Because I was always I always felt like ethically, maybe it was a gray area. Like, I I I wasn't sure that selling Grateful Dead music with my with under my name was kinda was okay.
Dennis:Yeah.
REED:It was sorta like, it's okay. I I feel fine with other people doing that, but I was just sort of like, oh, I kinda wanna make more personal things. Like, I don't wanna it's just too easy. It's too easy to make money selling Grateful Dead music instead of taking real risks.
Dennis:Well, you held out
Dennis:with that. You know what I mean? Yeah. You held out.
REED:But it feels like a right time.
reed:It feels like
Dennis:Talk about these guys tonight real briefly because and how they fit into this this whole improv discussion. We have Barry Celeste. Is Barry coming to me?
REED:Yeah. Oh, yeah. Alright. Well,
Dennis:let's start with Barry. Barry Celeste. I'm gonna tell you over there. Barry Sless, tell the audience are there. Yeah.
Dennis:Barry Sless, Brian Raschett, Anna Elva, and now Danny Eisenberg Yep. Just paid us a visit.
REED:Yeah. Yeah. It's a great fucking team. I mean, Anna's been been kind of a host here for the last year and a half or so, since Stu really backed off. I feel like Anna's stepped in and kind of been the the team leader here more weeks than not.
REED:At least when I'm here, it's always because Anna wanted me. So she's just the best, man. We've been having a ball playing together. Like,
Dennis:And as improvisers.
Dennis:Yeah. Right? As improvisers. I mean Absolutely.
Dennis:Everything we just talked about.
REED:She she has some very different views than me. Good. And a different she has her gauges are set differently than mine. So I'm always amazed that she likes playing with me, honestly, because she's she's a really methodical person and a, a really plan oriented person, which is ironic because she's such a brilliant improviser. But that's not really her favorite thing, you know, or a comfort zone.
REED:Like, So I feel I feel like she's just kind of starting to explore her more improvised side, which is exciting for somebody that accomplished already to be kind of being like getting getting into it a little bit. So, you know, and Celeste I've known Celeste for twenty years, but I don't know him very well. And we've we've been, we've been friendly for a really long time. We've only done a handful of gigs together. When I met him, Tea Leaf Green was opening for Moon Alice, and Sles was in that band.
REED:And I made him a mix CD. That's okay. Because I liked him. And then but since I, you know, I didn't take up the guitar till the lockdown, and so it's been really new exploring the guitar.
Dennis:That's true.
REED:And Barry has been playing the guitar his whole life. And so at Perry's in Fairfax Mhmm. Whenever I play at Perry's, Barry comes out and watches and stays the whole night In the audience. In the audience and watches me play and, like, and gives me very cool, specific like, he's really noticing what I'm doing and really into it. And for somebody of that caliber to be digging my rookie ass shit Wow.
REED:Is huge. So I he doesn't usually do gigs like this. So I was like, I hit him up expecting him to say no.
Dennis:Wow. That's so awesome. And he did it. And and you're talking about just picked up the guitar. You've been playing bass Yes.
Dennis:Bass guitar for all those years.
REED:Yeah. And cello and piano and
Dennis:else. Yeah.
Dennis:But but the guitar is a a new thing for you since the, I mean, new as a as a
REED:Yeah. Absolutely. Professional musician. Yeah. As a gigging I didn't play any gigs ever until I didn't own a guitar until 2019.
Dennis:Man, you're damn good at it, brother.
REED:It's fun.
Dennis:I mean, that's
REED:it. The the the dirty little secret is that, you know, we especially at rock and roll, classic rock culture, loves to fetishize instruments and the roles. You know? How many times have you heard a joke about a what how many drummers does it this or, you know, the singer this or the the bass player this. Like, we we treat them like they're types of people because this is how rock and roll was sold to the Beatles fans.
REED:And it's we've been under that hypnosis ever since. But it's not real. Instruments aren't really different than one another. They're not actually different people. The behavior isn't in the case when you take it home from the store.
REED:It doesn't have behavior. Like, we're projecting all of those roles onto these instruments. So
Dennis:Yeah. So not that different. Yeah.
Dennis:And when they say, oh, I thought you played the bass.
Dennis:Remember you say what? I play music. Yeah. I've heard you say Absolutely. How you play music.
Dennis:Yeah. And, and play it well.
Dennis:I I gotta say you, we've interviewed a lot
Dennis:of folks here. You are one of the most well spoken intelligent Wow. Around here. I mean, the the metaphor I love the metaphors. I think the the metaphors Do
REED:they use some cool metaphor?
Dennis:Like, metaphors are good for me.
Dennis:And I know and I and I I, you know,
Dennis:you had a a stint as a, paralegal somewhere along
Dennis:the line. Did you not? And I Paralegal. Did you not? Did I hear that you like, when you were
REED:my my one of my mentors was this blues guitar player in Oklahoma, Steve Pryor. And when I met him, he was in a lot of legal trouble, and he was living in his lawyer's garage. So for band practice, Met was me going to this woman's garage and learning old fucking blues standards from this very fucked up dude who's genius, virtuoso. Kim Auk, is a huge fan of this guy. He's since passed.
REED:But Yeah. So I so my first six months of knowing Steve Pryor, I was going to his lawyer's house hanging out in the garage Okay.
Dennis:Where
REED:he had a cot. You know? And, and then I was really broke.
reed:And she
REED:was like, I need I need help. I need copies made and stuff. I need Aaron's run, you know? And she didn't really, but she was just and I started dating her daughter. So it was the whole thing.
Dennis:It's the whole thing. Here we go. So let's scrap that scrap that help fairly little bit.
Dennis:Anyway, alright. Listen. Reid, man.
REED:I was a waiter, though. I was a damn
Dennis:good waiter.
REED:Damn. Damn good waiter.
Dennis:We appreciate your time here taking over the green room here. Go do your sound check. The podcast is gonna be awesome. People will listen to this, and they will listen to all of those
Dennis:once they hear what they're about to hear.
REED:Good night. Good night.
Dennis:I'll be there.
Dennis:And if they don't, you know what? You've done it, and you're just hoping to hope
Dennis:for the best.
REED:My job is to make it. My job is my job is to make the thing. Get it get it to completion, get it out the door. What happens once it's out the door is no no business.
Dennis:Alright. Well, have a great time tonight.
REED:Thanks, buddy.
Dennis:Thanks for listening to Tales from the Green Room, a presentation of Mount Tam Media. You can hear more spontaneous stories from the secluded confines of green rooms on our next episode. To experience all Mount Tam Media productions, including the Woman Are Smarter podcast, log on to mounttammedia.com. We'll see you at the next show.
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